How to achieve a believable belief?

Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby whateverist » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:10 pm

gilnv wrote:P.S. Today warmed up to 45 degrees Fahrenheit, so it was a good day for a bicycle ride. I've been 65 for a day now, and it's not bad so far. :)


Belated congratulations, Gil. You have three more laps around the sun than I do, and if you're still standing on your head you're doing a damn sight better that I am.
You can call me Mark or whatever.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby whateverist » Sun Mar 15, 2015 9:54 pm

hraith wrote:Pure materialism, as the religion of atheists, could be a believable belief, but is this the only one?


My goodness no. Materialism is not entailed by atheism. One can perfectly well believe in the phenomenology of subjective experience without believing in any gods. I can make sense of gods, souls and spirituality quite comfortably from my naturalistic point of view. It is simply that all things subjective exist only in the consciousness of living beings. Someone else is free to believe that consciousness is a world unto itself with no material dependence on organic states, but I personally would doubt that. For me all of consciousness is on-board, a natural product of the mind. I agree with Searle that consciousness is to brains what digestion is to the G.I. tract, a name for a function/process arising within a biological system.

But I don't claim to be right. I only claim this as what I believe. But don't feel too bad for what will seem to you to be my very niggardly outlook. I find it quite satisfying, enriching and meaningful. Though I have no use for a supernatural category, that doesn't mean that I can't experience astounding things all within the consciousness of my own brain. I see no reason to mix the inward and outward. The inward, I say, is most definitely dependent on the outward. Neurology is a subset of biology is a subset of chemistry is a subset of physics, true. But none of that explains the phenomenology of consciousness. While those fields explain quite well the conditions for the possibility of what we experience they don't at all explain the what of it. I can assure you a natural foundation for consciousness is not in the least restrictive, except perhaps in a useful way for avoiding patently absurd beliefs.


hraith wrote:Materialism gives no perspective and with this belief it cannot be assumed that there is a deep sense behind the world scenario at all.


You are mistaken. There are incredible depths of sense and meaning within consciousness which does not depend on a metaphysical footing apart from a brain. There is no loss whatsoever. It does help, though, to interpret what you experience in an as-if way, avoiding literalism so far as possible. The totality of oneself will not communicate with the conscious portion on its own terms. If we want to go there, we must be prepared to be the party that makes the greater effort. But there is definitely a there there, and one altogether satisfying.

hraith wrote:However if we assume there is a spiritual world beside the material one it would allow us to develop our own belief, which could give satisfaction to everyone and could show a deep sense oft he total world scenario.
For my evaluation I took into account all scientific facts (including evolution), the mentioned unproven assumption of a spiritual world beside the material one and my own experience in life. The result was a belief or weltanschauung with the following features:
- After death we will still exist as self-aware individuals (souls).


I can't agree with you there. Eternality is measured not in units of time but in the depths of the now you experience - while your organism functions. Beyond that there is renewal and replacement. More me is not required and quite beside the point.

hraith wrote:- The endless development of souls will be achieved via several lives on earth or elsewhere until the development can continue in the spiritual world only.
- In total there are three ongoing processes: Recycling of matter, biological evolution and the endless development of conscious individuals (souls). These processes go on and may have been started without any interaction of God.
A more detailed description of my „believable belief“ you will find in my blog:
http://rational-weltanschauung.blogspot.com.au/
I am very much interested to hear about the outcome of other evaluations for a believable belief with the same or with different premises.


Too literal for my liking but, so what? It is your view and if it satisfies you, more power to you. We are two travelers who come together only fleetingly, look up into vast starry night and tell each other what we think it all is and what it means. Neither of us can be in a position to conclusively reject the other's views. But almost always there is overlap as well as disagreement. That is enough.
You can call me Mark or whatever.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby AB517 » Tue Apr 07, 2015 4:30 am

make claims based on what you do know. And UNIFORMITARIANISM. with a physics degree we would understand "something" over "no-nothing". "no-nothing' just makes no sense even with the little we know.
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby romansh » Tue Apr 07, 2015 7:45 pm

AB517 wrote:make claims based on what you do know. And UNIFORMITARIANISM. with a physics degree we would understand "something" over "no-nothing". "no-nothing' just makes no sense even with the little we know.

You may want to take a look at this and see if it makes sense to you AB?

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=1203
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby whateverist » Tue Apr 07, 2015 9:50 pm

I always feel this guy Krauss likes to talk tongue in cheek with private jokes not everyone gets. His 'nothing' is far from the classic, intuitive, absolute nothing. It is the kind of nothing which has within it the capacity for everything, kind of like the sort of nothing many literal theists imagine having existed before God made everything. If God or Krauss' 'nothing' is always already there, then so in potential is everything else.

If big bangs and inflation can only be completely understood within the context of a frothy, foam of a multi-verse then we will probably never be in a position to understand such things. Our human scale may be too limited since we are products of the local/current bang and in essence walled off from every neighboring cell of the multi-verse. I don't think Krauss addresses these concerns and is content to go on about all we can observe as though that was all there could be. That seems particularly obtuse to me since what we can observe conforms to what we would expect from a multi-verse every bit as well as it does to a uni-verse.
You can call me Mark or whatever.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby romansh » Wed Apr 08, 2015 6:55 am

I have heard this criticism before Mark and I think I understand it.

But the way I understand Krauss's point is:

the energy held in:
matter + energy of empty space + gravitational energy
equals zero
Of course we can rearrange any balanced equation so that one side equals zero. Simon Blackburn also asks an interesting question ... why is nothing our default state?
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby AB517 » Mon Apr 20, 2015 6:08 pm

Adding up to zero and starting from nothing are two different starting states. I don't like Krauss method, But I tell theist you can't just say "oh, I don't believe that stuff" to a guy like that. It gets so annoying being dismissed out of hand by someone that doesn't know what they don't know. Some of us base our beliefs on something. Our faith is not blind faith but reasonable faith.

My faith isn't based on anti religion. Its based on forming belief based on observations of what is going on around us. But, people don't like facts getting in the way of their opinions. Maybe I am a bit like them sometimes.
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby romansh » Tue Apr 21, 2015 6:41 am

AB517 wrote:Adding up to zero and starting from nothing are two different starting states. I don't like Krauss method ...

What is your objection to Krauss's method AB?

I am not sure how the universe starting with zero energy and being (possibly) zero energy are that different?
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby AB517 » Wed Apr 22, 2015 4:59 am

This is tricky rom. For me. And I am not sure about it. There are two possible choices. From nothing or from something. I just am a "from something" camper. Because nothing freaks me out more than nothing.

no energy is like no-nothing to me. Nothing interacting with nothing else to form something. It is a valid claim based on what we don't know. It just does not make sense to me. Maybe it's an emotional belief for me ... maybe.

Adding up "zero" means that particles are interacting with each other to form "zero potential difference". That is "something" interacting to form "nothing". That would indicate the real possibility that it could form something again.

I don't think we have seen zero energy anywhere yet. I say that because everything is moving. Not only that but it maybe accelerating. that's a force. That's not only not zero energy, that is a force acting on everything. Kind of cool when ya think about it. Think of a box of marbles. even sitting there they have energy. Because the earth is moving. The illusion is "no energy".

I think, If all spaced stopped the box of marbles might still have gravitational potential. so still not zero. Although I must admit I think if everything stopped everything would disappear and be a bunch of force carrier particles. Not at zero and not no nothing. Maybe even gravity is someting moveing through a field.

Krauss, I like him more today than I did 5 years ago. How many times can somebody say "oh, I don't believe that." before it pisses you off. I know I get frustrated with An ex account or house wife out of hand dismissing a conclusion that is based on evidence with not an oz of any understanding but a ton of anti-religion emotion. So I kind of understand his frustration. I am backing off of my dismay at him these days.

At some point you feel like screaming "stfu up you don't know what you are talking about and listen for no god sake."
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby gilnv » Sat Apr 25, 2015 6:55 am

I like the idea that nothing can become something because a negative and a positive combined equals nothing. Although, I don't remember if 'how' a negative and positive aspect is extracted out of a nothing. It is a problem if there is no one with the tools to instigate such a feat.

If we knew that there are many other universes and/or dimensions, then I could imagine someone from those universes sticking his nose into our empty nothing universe and then starting off the so-called big bang type sequence from nothing. But that's a lot of conjecture that would only answer a few questions while creating many more questions.

Did someone from another universe poke into our nothing universe by using scalpels, tweezers, forks and knives?

Did God create the big bang? If so, was God always existing somewhere? Or did he big bang too? Or if God is a Pantheistic entity, did the big bang create him (God)?

The Dalai Lama has mentioned this conundrum. The idea of what is the beginning.

P.S. Then again, I wonder "Maybe the universe doesn't need a beginning. After all, the universe can't end, can it? If it can't end, maybe it can't have a beginning."
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