How to achieve a believable belief?

Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby romansh » Sat Apr 25, 2015 10:12 am

gilnv wrote:I like the idea that nothing can become something because a negative and a positive combined equals nothing. Although, I don't remember if 'how' a negative and positive aspect is extracted out of a nothing. It is a problem if there is no one with the tools to instigate such a feat.


I quite like it too. Not because it is aesthetically pleasing, though it may well be for some. But because it maintains the truthfulness of the first law of thermodynamics. Bill of course would point out this in of itself is not a requirement. More importantly it fits the data, to at least within experimental error - according to Krauss amongst others.

Also I agree with AB's point ... we need not have 'nothing' as our default position.
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby Bill » Sun Apr 26, 2015 4:00 pm

Wiki wrote: In general, a scientific law is the description of an observed phenomenon. It doesn't explain why the phenomenon exists or what causes it. The explanation of the phenomenon is called a scientific theory. It is a misconception that theories turn into laws with enough research.

"In science, laws are a starting place," said Peter Coppinger, an associate professor of biology and biomedical engineering at the Rose-Hulman Institute of Technology. "From there, scientists can then ask the questions, 'Why and how?'"


Having faith that one particular scientific law is inviolate is on par with having faith that the universe is only 6,000 years old or so. The absence of any underlying scientific theory is of no matter: we have achieved a believable belief and we will hold it to be true until someone demonstrates its falseness to our own satisfaction.

One of the emerging hypotheses as to why there is not one plausible theory to shore up the laws of thermodynamics is that they are illusions: observations of how big things tend to interact in a quantum universe: but only over short periods of time and small distances in space., A bit like Euclidean geometry, which is as equally useful but similarly bounded by space and time, and also without any substantial underlying theory to explain why it seems to work.
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby romansh » Tue Apr 28, 2015 6:53 am

Bill wrote:Having faith that one particular scientific law is inviolate is on par with having faith that the universe is only 6,000 years old or so.

While this appears to be your belief, I have to admit after pondering it for a while, I find it a really strange one.
Bill wrote:The absence of any underlying scientific theory is of no matter: we have achieved a believable belief and we will hold it to be true until someone demonstrates its falseness to our own satisfaction.

So your opinion is, certain scientific beliefs in theories being inviolable is on par with some evangelical Biblical theories; is this really true? And if so, is this belief of yours inviolate?
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby Bill » Tue Apr 28, 2015 8:11 am

I think I am going to have to withdraw from this thread as well - I am really, really tired of having words stuffed into my mouth with a demand to justify them.

The absence of proof is never a proof of absence. A believable belief is sustained because there is a lack of satisfactory dis-proof, not because of rock solid evidence to show the belief is inviolate. The evangelical can ignore scientific "proof" of the age of the universe because it is based on probabilities, not recorded observations. Those who believe in the inevitable unfolding of the universe can ignore quantum mechanic theories that it might not be quite so inevitable - because those theories are primarily based on mathematics, and not on recorded observations of a probabilist universe acting in a probabilistic manner. Except where they are: which can be dismissed as irrelevant with the same fervor as a "God Did It!"

I have changed my personal world view more than once in the past - and will no doubt one day change it again. None of my beliefs have ever been inviolate. Which is what I always thought was at the core of being agnostic. Others seem to treat agnosticism as an excuse for morbid skepticism over everything -as sterile an approach to debate as its close twin, ignosticism.

I do not wish to be hounded any more for choosing to willfully deny the inevitability of those observations lumped together to be called the laws of thermodynamics. Especially in a forum where opining that having a willful choice is held to be in direct violation of those laws.

So for that reason, I now withdraw from this thread. (One wonders on which other thread I might be allowed to express an opinion without being mocked for holding "really strange" beliefs. Still, there is some comfort in knowing that the only recourse left to those who disagree with me is a constant "shoot the messenger" barrage so that others will not actually try to read the message and possibly agree with it...)
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby AB517 » Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:38 am

I try to look around to see what we have in describing an unknown and come up with a story that fits what we see or contains the most conditions as possible.
The word "born" keeps cropping up. If fits so many angles in describing what we see. From particles that look like they have a purpose to people interpreting the connection to their surroundings as a "living god". Well, misinterpreting I should say. The connection I real enough, but sometimes the traits givin are more about solving an emotional need instead of a logical solution.

From every angle, for the last 35 some years, I keep getting back to "maybe it was born".
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby gilnv » Thu Apr 30, 2015 4:03 pm

Born is happening a lot. It seems to have a lot of the necessary ingredients. Seems intentual, at least by humans.

When Christians hear I'm agnostic, they often ask "Well, if God didn't make all this, how did it happen?". And although, they ask a good question that intrigues me, I don't see any reason that that good question should imply that their God did it.

I do think that the question, "how did matter and eventually us get created?" is such a good question that I think it does carry some weight regarding - that something might have created matter and therefore us or spirits. I personally don't think that a 'big bang from nothing' developing into us is as rational as someone that thinks God did it or spirits did it or Hinduism did it or a pantheism universe did it.

In fact, a conscious universe idea seems more mature than an atheist that keeps ignoring signs that homeostasis seems to be happening with our planet, and things like our rain forest does function like lungs for our planet, and that waterways often cleanse themselves like our own bodies do.

When a person accepts a belief, I don't blame them in any way. I figure they are just choosing amongst their possible answers. Such as an exam might offer "A, B, C, with D representing 'none of the above'. "
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