How to achieve a believable belief?

Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby romansh » Wed Dec 31, 2014 10:57 am

The link I just posted is an advocate for NDEs ... the author posted the what is observed while under the effects of ketamine.

This includes out of body experiences whilst under. Medics have gone as far as placing laptops displaying images to see if people who claim out of body experiences can actually see the image. I have not heard of anyone who has seen the image whilst having out of body experiences.

There are plenty of references of incomplete anaesthesia.

So the question becomes can chemicals like ketamine help us access get access to the spiritual world (should it exist)?
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby romansh » Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:34 pm

This comes back to my question ... why have an assumption of the existence of something we cannot perceive or verify?
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby Bill » Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:47 pm

romansh wrote:This comes back to my question ... why have an assumption of the existence of something we cannot perceive or verify?

On the other hand, why have an assumption that nothing can exist unless we can perceive or verify it?

Both attitudes seem very dualistic, one way or the other, in my opinion. For I am quite willing to assume that life exists on planets circling stars far beyond our reach of perception and verification. I cannot come up with a valid reason for stating categorically that life only exists on our planet.
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby gilnv » Wed Dec 31, 2014 5:52 pm

Hi Hraith,
Generally, my suspicions of everything are similar to yours, if I had to put forth my beliefs.
The soul type of world you mention has me at about 50 to 55 percent confident that it is true, or at least something close to it. Forgive me for quoting odds that I subjectively chose, but I played poker for a living for 15 years and possible chances is how I am wired to think. 50 to 55 percent confident is not very high, but it has grown to that size over the past decade, so that is the direction my beliefs have been in lately.

In regards, to 'cause and effect' or physical laws affecting souls, I wouldn't know. If there is 'cause and effect' involved between the 'soul world' and our 'materialistic world', it is probably a version of 'karma' in my opinion and I certainly wouldn't know which world affects the other world more.
And as you suspect, a soul could very likely have an awareness of things in my opinion too, but I would doubt that it would remember a past life on Earth or elsewhere. Although, who knows?

Recently I read 'How to Know Higher Worlds' by Rudolf Steiner, and it showed Steiner's opinion on how to interact with the soul world. And although his view is slightly validated by the Buddhist type experiences and/or beliefs of reincarnation and karma, there are enough differences in those belief's to make me skeptical about any validation. It still leaves me in an area of what I suspect to be true only because it seems the most likely of possible scenario's.

Welcome, and Happy New Year, although it may already be the new year in Australia, (it is still 2014 here by Lake Superior for me in the U.S.). :) Gil


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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby romansh » Wed Dec 31, 2014 6:08 pm

gilnv wrote:
Welcome, and Happy New Year, although it may already be the new year in Australia, (it is still 2014 here by Lake Superior for me in the U.S.). :) Gil
Albert Einstein said, “It is only to the individual that a soul is given.”


Yep ... Happy New Year to those who about to experience it ... and those that already have a new year ... start getting ready for Christmas (and a belated Happy New Year)

:party:
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby hraith » Thu Jan 01, 2015 3:30 am

First Happy New Year to all!

romansh wrote:This comes back to my question ... why have an assumption of the existence of something we cannot perceive or verify?


Almost any scientific progress started with an assumption or postulate, which is the creative part. Verification is just work, which has to follow. Einstein assumed 1918 that there should be gravitational waves. Huge efforts have been made during the last decades for evaluation, but still without success. Nevertheless there is doubt in the scientific community, that they will exist.
Regarding our worldview it is essential to create first a believable belief for yourself. This could be done like Gil has described by looking around an weighting the probability for different scenarios. After that you can look for proofs which convince you - not necessarily all sceptics.
My (Hermann's) belief is described at: http://rational-weltanschauung.blogspot.com/
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby Bill » Thu Jan 01, 2015 10:01 am

hraith wrote:Bill,
In my belief there is no hell or heaven.

And in mine neither.

I was simply observing that if the bible fundamentalists had actually gotten in right, and Yahweh was indeed a viscous misogynistic homophobe, I would not wish to take part in the universe he had created for us.
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby romansh » Thu Jan 01, 2015 12:18 pm

hraith wrote:Almost any scientific progress started with an assumption or postulate, which is the creative part.

I would say it is a bit more complicated than that ... Scientific progress certainly involves postulates hypotheses etc, but what is also required are observations that don't fit with the existing paradigm.
hraith wrote:Verification is just work, which has to follow. Einstein assumed 1918 that there should be gravitational waves. Huge efforts have been made during the last decades for evaluation, but still without success. Nevertheless there is doubt in the scientific community, that they will exist.

I don't think this is a perfect analogy. Einstein proposed a set of equations that described bodies under movement, and the interpretation of these equations is that space is somehow warped by mass. Now his general and special theories start to fall apart at the quantum level. But we have methods of testing whether there are or are not gravitational waves.

I am not at all sure how I would test for a spirit world. The fact that we can induce chemically altered states of supposed consciousness is for me interesting but not particularly telling with respect to a spirit world.
hraith wrote:Regarding our worldview it is essential to create first a believable belief for yourself. This could be done like Gil has described by looking around an weighting the probability for different scenarios. After that you can look for proofs which convince you - not necessarily all sceptics.

I am not looking for proofs ... these I think are fools errands. But I will buy corroborating evidence. Ketamine induced altered biology is not it. Apparently compounds like naloxone can produce hellish NDEs ... is this any more valid as a spirit world than that by ketamine spirit world.

I suspect all this is simply indicative of our biochemical natures.
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby gilnv » Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:34 pm



Here is a youtube video (Gravity Waves: Einstein's Messengers), about recent gravitation wavelenght research and an observatory place called LIGO in Louisana, U.S..

It is a fascinating 20 minute video, especially for me because I have my computer hooked up to my TV and I get a big picture.

However, as many people know, I have less faith in 'Science' than Romansh has in 'Ayahuasca drinking shamans' of South America.

Albeit, both are interesting, and both are probably dangerous.
Happy 2015, :pop: Gil.
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby Carol » Thu Jan 01, 2015 6:40 pm

Being less eloquent and knowledgable as others here, my simplistic comment is that the memory, reasoning, calculating and other functions of the brain are known to cease with death. For that we need no more proof.

But for me to imagine that some portion has the ability to float away into another realm of "life" with experiences is a bit far fetched. Fun to consider like talking about a Sci-Fi flick or what-ifs. Also, how would we ever know and what types of experiments would we do to test the accuracy of the idea. We are talking about life after death....a long discussed and disputed subject.

I think the only way to believe in the soul and its eternity is how the Chrstians believe. Just believe, period.
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