The case for a non-interventionist God

Re: The case for a non-interventionist God

Postby Dissily Mordentroge » Tue Jul 25, 2017 3:47 pm

Hang on a moment kiddies, physics is beginning to tell us there is no 'nothing'. That is the vacuum we imagine to be empty is anything but. We might then start to ask how all those speculated extra dimensions appear to be totally 'non-existant' from where we stand and therefore visible to us only in the shape of cosmologist's 'elegant' maths (phantasies?)
The Human Race is Insane.
User avatar
Dissily Mordentroge
Member
Member
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:36 pm
Location: Australia
Affiliation: Agnostic
Country: Australia

Re: The case for a non-interventionist God

Postby romansh » Tue Jul 25, 2017 7:18 pm

Dissily Mordentroge wrote: Hang on a moment kiddies, physics is beginning to tell us there is no 'nothing'. That is the vacuum we imagine to be empty is anything but.

This is the point I was trying to make.

Dissily Mordentroge wrote: We might then start to ask how all those speculated extra dimensions appear to be totally 'non-existant' from where we stand and therefore visible to us only in the shape of cosmologist's 'elegant' maths (phantasies?)

Not sure I understand the point here ... perhaps a bit of clarification please?
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
Douglas Adams
User avatar
romansh
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4671
Images: 23
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:46 pm
Location: BC/US border - in the woods
Affiliation: Agnostic

Re: The case for a non-interventionist God

Postby Bill » Wed Jul 26, 2017 8:56 am

If a cubit meter of "hard" vacuum has in it four atoms, two cosmic rays and 18 photons: what word would you use to describe the space between those bits that show it is not completely empty?

We seem to have hit another problem with language invented for humans to use to be too inexact for deep precision.
The only reality is the moment that we call "Now".
= = = =
We evolved to seek dinner, not to seek the truth - Mark Whatever
User avatar
Bill
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5027
Images: 1
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:23 pm
Location: South Orange, CA
Blog: View Blog (8)
Affiliation: Agnostic
Country: United States

Re: The case for a non-interventionist God

Postby romansh » Wed Jul 26, 2017 1:02 pm

"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
Douglas Adams
User avatar
romansh
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4671
Images: 23
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:46 pm
Location: BC/US border - in the woods
Affiliation: Agnostic

Re: The case for a non-interventionist God

Postby Dissily Mordentroge » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:41 am



All interesting but we appear to have wandered from theological speculation into speculative physics.
To bring things back from cosmology (?) to the divine I wan't to draw attention to the common notion pushed by many of the religious that this thing called 'God' isn't the God of the spaces but the God of everything in that all of existence, now, infinitely in the past and infinitely in the future is that entity. Then we have the nasty little problem Christian apologetics has been struggling to disguise since way back. Where did Satan (evil?) come from? At times the absurdities of our species attempts to construct a logical framework to explain away all the innate contradictions are so torturously convoluted as to induce the philosophic equivalent of a migraine yet still they battle on attempting to explain the position their peculiar ideas place them in. It's not for no reason an entire discipline, biblical apologetics, has long been devoted to these particular questions.
2nd Thessalonians Ch:2.V:11. ?
The Human Race is Insane.
User avatar
Dissily Mordentroge
Member
Member
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:36 pm
Location: Australia
Affiliation: Agnostic
Country: Australia

Re: The case for a non-interventionist God

Postby Bill » Fri Jul 28, 2017 9:17 am

Our stupid, stupid ancestors making the default nothing when there is no such thing as empty space. Sheesh! They should all have been taken out at the crack of dawn and shot for being so stupid. And then hung, drawn and quartered as well - that would have taught them.
The only reality is the moment that we call "Now".
= = = =
We evolved to seek dinner, not to seek the truth - Mark Whatever
User avatar
Bill
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5027
Images: 1
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:23 pm
Location: South Orange, CA
Blog: View Blog (8)
Affiliation: Agnostic
Country: United States

Re: The case for a non-interventionist God

Postby Dissily Mordentroge » Fri Jul 28, 2017 12:20 pm

Bill wrote:Our stupid, stupid ancestors making the default nothing when there is no such thing as empty space. Sheesh! They should all have been taken out at the crack of dawn and shot for being so stupid. And then hung, drawn and quartered as well - that would have taught them.

Our stupid, stupid ancestors aren't the problem, it's the stupid, stupid theologians who still push this nonsense today.
The Human Race is Insane.
User avatar
Dissily Mordentroge
Member
Member
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Fri Mar 31, 2017 10:36 pm
Location: Australia
Affiliation: Agnostic
Country: Australia

Re: The case for a non-interventionist God

Postby romansh » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:05 pm

Dissily Mordentroge wrote:All interesting but we appear to have wandered from theological speculation into speculative physics.
To bring things back from cosmology (?) to the divine I wan't to draw attention to the common notion pushed by many of the religious that this thing called 'God' isn't the God of the spaces but the God of everything in that all of existence, now, infinitely in the past and infinitely in the future is that entity. Then we have the nasty little problem Christian apologetics has been struggling to disguise since way back. Where did Satan (evil?) come from? At times the absurdities of our species attempts to construct a logical framework to explain away all the innate contradictions are so torturously convoluted as to induce the philosophic equivalent of a migraine yet still they battle on attempting to explain the position their peculiar ideas place them in. It's not for no reason an entire discipline, biblical apologetics, has long been devoted to these particular questions.
2nd Thessalonians Ch:2.V:11. ?

I think Bill was aiming at how we understand the logic given in the initial post. Are there any errors in logic or are there any problematic assumptions. The Christian version of God does not fit the bill for a disinterested God who set things in motion and then buggered off ... so to speak.

Questions like does empty space have gravitational fields in it now, I think are valid. OK before a big bang were they there? What about dark energy and matter? A Copenhagen interpretation of quantum phenomena?
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
Douglas Adams
User avatar
romansh
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4671
Images: 23
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:46 pm
Location: BC/US border - in the woods
Affiliation: Agnostic

Re: The case for a non-interventionist God

Postby Bill » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:09 pm

The case that non-intervention theism is nonsense has not much stuffing in it. Pointing out that religion is, in the main, stark raving mad is a case against intervention theism. The case that intervention theism is nonsense has far better legs. In my opinion.
The only reality is the moment that we call "Now".
= = = =
We evolved to seek dinner, not to seek the truth - Mark Whatever
User avatar
Bill
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 5027
Images: 1
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 1:23 pm
Location: South Orange, CA
Blog: View Blog (8)
Affiliation: Agnostic
Country: United States

Re: The case for a non-interventionist God

Postby romansh » Fri Jul 28, 2017 3:17 pm

Bill wrote:The case that non-intervention theism is nonsense has not much stuffing in it. Pointing out that religion is, in the main, stark raving mad is a case against intervention theism. The case that intervention theism is nonsense has far better legs. In my opinion.

I agree ... it is easier to test for and find wanting.

Eg a loving god? Really?

But a noninterventionist god has similar problems. Why does a universe out of nothing require a god and why does a god out of nothing not require something more special. This line of questioning goes back to antiquity.

Alternatively there always has been something ... a universe, multiverse or whatever?
A non interventionist god ... should it exist does not give us any special insights either.
It is OK to say I don't know. Having said that ... what next?
"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
Douglas Adams
User avatar
romansh
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4671
Images: 23
Joined: Fri Dec 03, 2010 6:46 pm
Location: BC/US border - in the woods
Affiliation: Agnostic

PreviousNext

Return to Deism, Theism & Atheism: God Talk

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest

cron