People's "right" not to vaccinate?

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Re: People's "right" not to vaccinate?

Postby Bill » Sun Feb 08, 2015 2:11 pm

The increase in student smokers was largely countered by the continued reduction in smoking in all other demographics. The increase was followed by a far greater rate of decline between 1998 and 2007. At this time, smoking in the US is at a rate less than the 1930's.

U.S. tobacco has moved almost all of its marketing campaigns to Africa, where the ill effects of tobacco go largely unpublished.

A bit like the Southern Baptists, who are using missionary recruiters in Africa to find replacement numbers for those deserting pews in American churches.
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Re: People's "right" not to vaccinate?

Postby romansh » Sun Feb 08, 2015 3:42 pm

I think this whole vaccination thing is not that straight forward.

There are things that like polio and smallpox. The latter has been eradicated worldwide other than some research labs. Polio is all but gone except in some war torn religious type places. Polio is obviously debilitating and is on the verge of being eradicated but is stubbornly holding on in a handful of countries and is exporting virus to neighbouring countries. This is a clear no brainer.

Things like measles is a bit more tricky. I know when our son was vaccinated with MMR, that evening he had a temperature of 41 C. He did not get his booster shot.

How many of us have an up to date tetanus shot?

Then there is the flu vaccine. Recently on the radio some medical officer in Ontario was recommending that we don't promote the mass vaccination. The cost benefit analysis did not justify the outcome. Essentially the healthy are taking the flu shot so that the elderly do not succumb their illnesses because stress of getting flu. I think he said that the flu vaccine in the elderly was not that effective.
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Re: People's "right" not to vaccinate?

Postby Bill » Sun Feb 08, 2015 4:05 pm

!n 1963 there were just under 500,000 cases of measles reported in the US...1964was the year the measles vaccine was made widely available. In 2004 there were 19 reported cases. But 2004 saw the start of the "vaccinations are bad for you" campaign, and the number of cases reported rose to 3.015 in 2014.

In Far East Asia, a problem identified with the mumps element of their locally made MMR vaccine has made that region act in a very strong anti-vaccine manner. Their numbers for 1963 were about 130,000, for 2004 about 85,000 and from preliminary figures, last year was about the same. Poland has pretty much the same track record, for pretty mush the same reason.

Most measles cases in recent US history can be traced to un-immunized people arriving in America from Japan or Poland, either returning from a trip to either of those countries, or tourists from there visiting the US.

Measles was virtually eradicated from the US, and it is now making some sort of come back. And the entire comeback is on children whose parents decided that the risk of death from measles was less than the risk of some side effect of the vaccine.
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Re: People's "right" not to vaccinate?

Postby gilnv » Thu Feb 12, 2015 7:11 pm

http://www.amazon.com/Melanies-Marvelous-Measles-Stephanie-Messenger/dp/1466938897/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1423785672&sr=1-1&keywords=melanies+marvelous+measles

I don't follow the news on TV or radio, so the seriousness of current events is not something I know about. Therefore, I'm hesitate about making jokes.
But if its okay to laugh about the 'measles' topic, then you should check out the comments of this book, Melanies Marvelous Measles,
on Amazon. Above is the link.

1000 people gave the book a poor review and 200 people gave it a good review. I'm guessing that the reviewers didn't read the book or even buy it, but felt free to comment jokes about it. The majority of the comments are by the 'pro-vaxxers' (if I can make up that name) and only a few are by the anti-vaxxers.
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Re: People's "right" not to vaccinate?

Postby Carrie » Fri Feb 13, 2015 10:38 am

Here is another take on the reasons for being against vaccinations. Personally I don't understand this view, especially when one considers the people of faith believing in a "Heaven" (surely an unborn baby would go straight there, and they are arguing for a more difficult life on Earth compared to "paradise"?) or if they eat meat, or if they engage in any kind of war, or like I said before the baby doesn't matter AFTER it's born? :?


http://www.catholiceducation.org/en/sci ... rtion.html
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Re: People's "right" not to vaccinate?

Postby romansh » Mon Feb 16, 2015 6:54 pm

"That's right!" shouted Vroomfondel, "we demand rigidly defined areas of doubt and uncertainty!"
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Re: People's "right" not to vaccinate?

Postby Inquisitor » Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:57 am

[quote="Carrie"]Here is another take on the reasons for being against vaccinations. Personally I don't understand this view, especially when one considers the people of faith believing in a "Heaven" (surely an unborn baby would go straight there, and they are arguing for a more difficult life on Earth compared to "paradise"?) or if they eat meat, or if they engage in any kind of war, or like I said before the baby doesn't matter AFTER it's born? :?

Interesting article. (even if its Catholic). The mention of Soylent Green really sets the tone of the argument. But then, as a culture we have gotten to a point where we use the worst case scenario in just about everything that we want to draw attention to. If my doctor's name was Frankenstein and I knew he did some really weird stuff on the side, yet did a great job with my personal health care, I would not let his hobby interfere with my need to be treated knowing that the treatment would be effective. And if the weird stuff he did on the side resulted in better health care for me, well, more power (igor, throw the lever) to him.
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Re: People's "right" not to vaccinate?

Postby subtlegong » Thu Feb 19, 2015 12:55 pm

I've mentioned before that my brother is autistic and I have theories on the rise in autism rates that have nothing to do with second rate dis-proven decade old research. I think autism is a beneficial mutation in a technological age. Increased focus, less interest in increasing outdated social customs, higher than average intelligence, and true genius in one field art or science... I kind wish I was autistic sometimes. My brother makes my writing look like the scribbling of a toddler and he's 13 years younger than me. I realize there are health and care issues with autism so I'm not outright promoting that we get it (and certainly not suggesting that it comes from mmr vaccines since that has been repeatedly disproved), but don't knock autism until you've tried it.
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Re: People's "right" not to vaccinate?

Postby gilnv » Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:46 pm

At the VA yesterday, the nurse asked me if I wanted a Flu vaccine.
I replied "No thanks, I haven't had the flu in the past decade and I have never gotten a flu shot". (I'm assuming that if I get the flu, it won't be life threatening to me, but maybe I could carry it, I don't know.)
Should I be getting a flu shot? A friend of mine got a bit irate when hearing I wasn't interested in getting a flu shot.

There is an idea that if enough people have a vaccine, then the disease will be wiped out. But I found a blog by a doctor that calls that idea the "herd immunity" idea. And he doesn't give it much credit in regards to measles, according to the first page of his blog that I read. I'll post some of it below-
The “measles outbreak” at Disneyland in December 15th-20th, 2014 has unfortunately been used as a political opportunistic football to pursue political and pharmaceutical, economic goals based on creating a climate of fear, intimidation, and misinformation. The recent historical and epidemiological reality, that I will review, raises serious questions about the effectiveness of the measles vaccine; the theoretical belief of herd immunity; and the fantasy of 100% protection from measles. In the case of Disneyland, as in other situations around the world, the 90-94% vaccination rate needed, according to the theory of “herd immunity”, was far exceeded. This blog is an effort to cool down and empower people to look at this “controversial” situation with some scientific, evidence-based clarity as documented by epidemiological reality. In the United States, we are also now seeing measles outbreaks occurring in schools where the vaccination rate is over 98%, which significantly exceeds the 90-94% theoretical projection needed for “herd immunity.” This epidemiological evidence is based on material from my co-authored forthcoming book with Leah Lynn titled Conscious Parenting from a chapter called Toxic Synergy. One measles outbreak occurred in an American school where 100% of the children had been vaccinated. At vaccination rates of 98-100% we can’t really seriously blame the unvaccinated or use lack of “herd immunity” theory to explain this outbreak of measles among the completely vaccinated populations. As we examine the measles vaccine effectiveness and the failed theory of “herd immunity”, it is powerful to examine the actual epidemiological data. For example, in 1984 there was a measles outbreak in the New Mexico junior high school, in which 98% of the cases were recently vaccinated children. In a 1984 another breakout of measles occurred in an Illinois high school, in which 100% of the cases occurred in previously vaccinated students. There are at least 15 other clearly documented examples of failed herd immunity. The chart below is taken from Neil Z. Miller’s book Vaccine Safety Manual published by New Atlantean Press in 2008 and illustrates the epidemiological evidence of outbreaks of measles in vaccinated populations that dispels the 100% protection fear/fantasy. The entire article is over 10 pages
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Re: People's "right" not to vaccinate?

Postby Bill » Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:48 pm

Even so, the hard data is very difficult to refute. As I said earlier, !n 1963 there were just under 500,000 cases of measles reported in the US...In 2004 there were 19 reported cases. The accepted explanation is that 20 years of having measles vaccinations available reduced the potential patient pool to a degree that the disease had become exceedingly rare.

It may be true that you cannot completely eradicate a disease purely through immunization, but it sure does look as if immunization can cut the death rate of some disease from 450 a year to just about zero. That must mean something, I think.

The Flu virus is somewhat different in that one word "flu" covers 3 types, 60 sub-types and many, many strains. To complicate the matter further, several diseases give the victim symptoms virtually identical to flu symptoms. Any attempt to eradicate influenza by immunization is doomed to failure, simply because there are too many target viruses to go after. Total and complete isolation of every potential carrier might work in the long term, but the social engineering consequences of trying to enforce such a method probably means that any attempt is equally doomed to failure.
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