The evil that men do ...

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The evil that men do ...

Postby Bill » Tue May 23, 2017 7:02 am

I was born and raised in Stockport, a town that shares a common border with Manchester. And for some reason, that made last night's outrage more personal to me than any of the other in the list of inhuman barbarianism. If the only way an organization can justify its existence is by murdering 8 year old girls, then that organization has proven it has no justification whatsoever to be allowed to exist.

Having said that, my anger is at those who espouse terror, not those who wish to live their lives by following any specified religious doctrine. The evil is in the hearts of those who wish to control all of us, not those who wish to coexist with us.
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Re: The evil that men do ...

Postby romansh » Tue May 23, 2017 1:26 pm

In three weeks or so I will be landing at Manchester airport ... not that I have any particular fears or so, but the events make it a little more poignant.

Now what is the best way to eliminate these premature and unnecessary deaths and outrage?

Education is one and a watering down of some horrible interpretations of Islam. End of the day we will on impose our will on someone else's.

Understand the cause and steer the ship based on that understanding.
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Re: The evil that men do ...

Postby Dissily Mordentroge » Thu May 25, 2017 3:58 pm

"Education is one and a watering down of some horrible interpretations of Islam. . . . . . . . . . . . . . ..
Understand the cause and steer the ship based on that understanding."

There is seldom a single cause but a complex of them. Instance, the West's unjustified invasions of the Middle East for over a century now compounded with passages in the Koran such as Sura 47.V4 can be taken as justification for barbaric acts.
"When ye encounter the infidels, strike off their heads till ye have made a slaughter among them, and of the rest make fast the fetters."
In the end though political correctness forbidding the analysis and criticism of the content of so called holy books will get us nowhere.
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Re: The evil that men do ...

Postby Bill » Thu May 25, 2017 6:25 pm

Quoting things out of context certainly makes it simpler to show others as being beneath contempt.

Sura 47.4 is part of instruction on the proper manner of conduct in war when attacked by armies sent on a crusade against Islam. When put into context, the Muslims are beubg told to kill their attackers until those attackers are defeated. The resulting captives are to be treated with compassion and humanely = even if holding them for ransom is encouraged.

Not quite the same thing when put like that, don't you think?

We can use the same technique to show that, when put back into context, Leviticus 20:13 was never written to say that homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of Yahweh.
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Re: The evil that men do ...

Postby romansh » Sat May 27, 2017 7:57 am

Dissily Mordentroge wrote:There is seldom a single cause but a complex of them. Instance, the West's unjustified invasions of the Middle East for over a century now compounded with passages in the Koran such as Sura 47.V4 can be taken as justification for barbaric acts.

I agree with the single cause comment ...

And the Surah was an amazing premonition in that it preceded (the) crusades by four hundred years. Of course it [crusade] could be taken as any old attack by any old infidel opposed to be conquered by the peace loving Muslim horde.

The way I look at it, Islam is six hundred years behind Christianity as a religion. With a bit of careful selective cross breeding we might get believers with floppy ears. I mean this a lot more kindly than it might sound.
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Re: The evil that men do ...

Postby Dissily Mordentroge » Sat May 27, 2017 4:58 pm

Bill wrote:Quoting things out of context certainly makes it simpler to show others as being beneath contempt.

Sura 47.4 is part of instruction on the proper manner of conduct in war when attacked by armies sent on a crusade against Islam. When put into context, the Muslims are beubg told to kill their attackers until those attackers are defeated. The resulting captives are to be treated with compassion and humanely = even if holding them for ransom is encouraged.

Not quite the same thing when put like that, don't you think?

We can use the same technique to show that, when put back into context, Leviticus 20:13 was never written to say that homosexuality is a sin in the eyes of Yahweh.

Not that simple. Shia and Sunni interpret this passage differently . One using it as justification for slaughter, the other claiming, as you do, certainty for the passage being mearly a localised instruction for 'justifiable' murder during war. Not even so called moderate Islam has questioned the real meaning of this and many similar passages in the Koran ( see below) just as many of todays' Christians interpret Leviticus 20.13 and others passages to suit their twisted neurotic ends. What I find deeply troubling in the west is political correctness telling us we aren't permitted to analyse, let alone criticise the content of so called holy books. To even begin to do so in many muslim nations will have you before the religious court charged with blasphemy if not stoned to death without trial. And let's not delude ourselves we in the Christian west have always been on the side of good in this context.

"O our Lord! suffer not our hearts to go astray after that thou hast once guided us, and give us mercy from before thee; for verily thou art He who giveth.
O our Lord! For the day of whose coming there is no doubt, thou wilt surely gather mankind together. Verily, God will not fail the promise.
As for the infidels, their wealth, and their children, shall avail them nothing against God. They shall be fuel for the fire.
After the wont of the Pharaoh, and of those who went before them, they treated our signs as falsehoods. Therefore God laid hold of them in their sins; and God is severe punishing!
Say to the infidels: ye shal be worsted, and to Hell shall ye be gathered together; and wretched the couch' Koran.
Sura:2.V:6-10
"Oh Believers! save yourselves and your families from the fire whose fuel is men and stones, over which are set angels fierce and mighty :they disobey not God in what He hath commanded them, but execute His behests" Koran Sura: 66.V:7.
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Re: The evil that men do ...

Postby Bill » Mon May 29, 2017 11:24 am

Ok - if context does not matter, then God abominates homosexuality and it is right an proper for true Christians to hound homosexuals out of existence: after all, it is for their own good.

I can only make that case if I am allowed to ignore context. perhaps it is because I have no truck for that case that I insist it always be kept in context. At which point it does not stand muster and fails to persuade.

Using literal translations also helps. But to avoid the literal translation trap, you have to be fluent in the original language, not the target one. And also all intermediary languages that might have caused transliteration error of one kind or another.
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Re: The evil that men do ...

Postby Dissily Mordentroge » Tue May 30, 2017 12:13 am

Bill wrote:Ok - if context does not matter, then God abominates homosexuality and it is right an proper for true Christians to hound homosexuals out of existence: after all, it is for their own good.

I can only make that case if I am allowed to ignore context. perhaps it is because I have no truck for that case that I insist it always be kept in context. At which point it does not stand muster and fails to persuade.

Using literal translations also helps. But to avoid the literal translation trap, you have to be fluent in the original language, not the target one. And also all intermediary languages that might have caused transliteration error of one kind or another.

As you have hinted there are several problems, especially with the so called Christian holy book, when you use the descriptor 'original language'. Modern biblical scholars can't even agree which local dialect/language parts of the New Testament was originally couched in. They're also still arguing which passages were later additions, which were removed by Rome in the early days of the church to reinforce their power and which are downright forgeries committed for similar reasons. Then we have this peculiar idea still held by many Christians that every word in the ancient greek has an agreed, unambiguous modern definition, not to mention the absurd claim the entire mish mash is 'The Word of God'.
Take for instance (putting aside for now the belief of many biblical scholars that Paul of Tarsus was himself a homosexual) in 1st Corinthians Ch:5,V:10 and Ch:6.V9. Paul uses the word malekos, which means something like soft or lacking in self-control, and the word arsenokoitis which has been given a range of meanings from a male lying and, as far as can be ascertained by context, actually has implications referring to male prostitutes. The modern church has gleefully translated arsenokoitis with various terms ranging from sexual perverts to homosexuals or sodomites. Outside of the incestuous world of fundamentalist Christianity there is much debate whether these translations are at all accurate. If Paul is referring to male prostitutes or even abusive homosexual relationships, then a word of condemnation could possibly be justified. For that condemnation to be extended to include faithful, loving non exploitative gay and lesbian partnerships is to stretch the text to breaking point in service of one's prejudice.
(freely paraphrased from John Shelby Spong's 'The Sins of Scripture:Exposing the Bible's Texts of Hate to Reveal the God of Love")
So, if we focus back on the original topic of 'The Evil that Men do' we may claim the church, and it's various mutations, have been doing evil for a long time.

Being a practicing homosexual myself ( not that I need any practice!) I'm somewhat concerned at your "Ok - if context does not matter, then God abominates homosexuality and it is right and proper for true Christians to hound homosexuals out of existence: after all, it is for their own good."
If God abominates homosexuality why , if we accept Genesis Ch:1.V:26 we might ask did he/she/it place a major g-spot, the prostate gland, just inside the male anus? I'm also puzzled as to how being 'hounded out of existence' could be for one's own good'. If you don't exist, you don't exist. Maybe you're hinting at 'cure by prayer therapy'. Hardly a recipe for one's own good considering an obscenely high percentage of those exposed to those methods commit suicide. Maybe though that is the 'good' to be attained - - ceasing to exist?
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Re: The evil that men do ...

Postby Bill » Tue May 30, 2017 8:29 am

We argue the same corner. No scripture, in context, has condemned homosexuality. Out of context, those with an agenda to pursue will find words to support their mistaken claim.

It is my view that those who wish to follow a religion, any religion at all no matter how bizarre some or all of its tenets may be, should be allowed to do so. With one caveat - they do not harm others because of their religion. Even if it is true that one or more of their bizarre tenets give them permission to do harm, if they never obey those tenets, then they may be left in peace.

I am personally persuaded that 99.99% of muslims are as appalled at terrorist acts as the rest of humanity - just that such reactions in the Muslim world are so un-newsworthy they never get mentioned by Western media.
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Re: The evil that men do ...

Postby Dissily Mordentroge » Tue May 30, 2017 9:30 pm

Bill wrote:We argue the same corner. No scripture, in context, has condemned homosexuality. Out of context, those with an agenda to pursue will find words to support their mistaken claim.

It is my view that those who wish to follow a religion, any religion at all no matter how bizarre some or all of its tenets may be, should be allowed to do so. With one caveat - they do not harm others because of their religion. Even if it is true that one or more of their bizarre tenets give them permission to do harm, if they never obey those tenets, then they may be left in peace.

I am personally persuaded that 99.99% of muslims are as appalled at terrorist acts as the rest of humanity - just that such reactions in the Muslim world are so un-newsworthy they never get mentioned by Western media.

Until and unless some of that 99.99% start openly questioning passages in the Koran I'm not going to be persuaded.Islam is yet to be subject to anything like Christianity was exposed to during The Enlightenment. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment
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