Mark of the Beast

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Re: Mark of the Beast

Postby windywherever » Thu Nov 26, 2015 1:08 am

I am not; this is one of your axioms not mine!


No, "safely dismissing other interpretations" without understanding why (which is why I asked you to explain the axiom assigned to me) is definitely not a belief I hold.

romansh wrote:So you think (G)god can be scientifically examined and understood? Good.


Hmm, if you mean putting God in a test tube and performing experiments on him, no. But if you mean it's possible to get a better understanding of God through the study of the things he created, then yes.

romansh wrote:And who is arbiter of exactly what they mean?


Good question. The prophecy talking about buying/selling via a mark on the right hand. World banking is actually moving in the direction of buy/selling via a microchip in the right hand. Practical experience shows the words mean exactly what they say.

romansh wrote:Actually you mean, Yes it is not a coincidence ...


You really like this misrepresentation thing, huh? I mean exactly what I said. No, It's not a coincidence. It's a prediction coming true. This is the definition of coincidence: a remarkable concurrence of events or circumstances without apparent causal connection.

The last part, (i.e. without apparent causal connection) is untrue for the prophecy. There is causal connection in that John wasn't just fantasizing about what may happen someday. He predicted that it would, in fact, happen. And, it is, in fact, starting to happen just as he predicted.

romansh wrote:I suspect such things might catch on ... but there are downsides to such a thing, consequently I would not bother.


For now, you can take an aloof position on microchipping. It's certainly not mandatory at this time. But, just as you cannot use money from 50 years ago, because it is outdated, so too a time is coming when cash, in general (along with plastic cards) will become outdated. You won't have any choice; not because some big bad government is forcing you, but because the shops simply will not have the infrastructure to accept cash or cards anymore.

This thing about "I would not bother" is very similar to what the Christians say, and they claim to actually believe the Revelation is real and accurate! Whether Christain, agnostic, or atheist, the world in general seems to have very little regard for a genuine, measurable fulfillment of prophecy, much less the lesson behind the prophecy.
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Re: Mark of the Beast

Postby windywherever » Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:22 am

Bill wrote:My grounds for not bothering to try to engage you in debate ant more are exactly as I stated in that post: "You ignore any point of view that differs from yours by dismissing it as errant, you invent "facts" to support your world view, and you pepper your posts with insults aimed at those who question anything you say."


Obviously, I can't ignore a point of view AND conclude it as errant at the same time. For example, your cattle branding thing. It was an argument you posed and I commented on it extensively. I neither ignored nor dismissed it though I certainly did conclude that it was errant based on the evidence.

As for inventing facts and insults, I think you're saying that kind of stuff because you're annoyed that I really did show your arguments to be errant. You didn't respond to my rebuttal about the cattle branding stuff except to suggest we don't really know what the words mean (in which case one wonders how you could assert that the word really means cattle branding in the first place). That argument, too, I responded to extensively (contrary to your claims that I ignore any pov different to my own). In other words, the cattle branding thing collapsed so you tried plan b, which was to claim we can't know what the words mean anyway. Even when I pointed out that the evidence (what's actually happening in world banking now) matches what the words say, you still carried on that we can't know the accuracy of the words. This is why I asked "how long do you stand on the tracks before you acknowledge that a train is, indeed, heading straight for you".

What's happening in world banking today is exactly what is described in the prophecy; a global system of buying/selling via a sign of loyalty/agreement on the right hand. When a person takes a microchip implant agreement is made between that person and the financial system to follow the various rules and regulations pertaining to the financial system in which they are participants. The meaning of "charagma" is easily fulfilled in this concept.

Emotional outbursts about being forced to your knees do not address the topic or the evidence presented (especially since there is not a shred of evidence to support the accusation that I want you to fall to your knees). It's easy to get the impression that it is you who cannot tolerate a point of view different to your own, at least on this topic. If the topic were something else, not spiritually related, you'd probably be fun to chat with and we'd not have all this tension.
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Re: Mark of the Beast

Postby Bill » Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:39 am

windywherever wrote:Emotional outbursts about being forced to your knees do not address the topic or the evidence presented (especially since there is not a shred of evidence to support the accusation that I want you to fall to your knees).

You keep stating that I wrote that you want me to fall to my knees as a reaction of being given your great insight. What I actually wrote was ... for you to berate us for not instantly falling to our knees to worship your savior. Which is quite different from your version of my words. You are not forcing me to my knees, you simply seem to be aghast that all of us are not doing it of our own free will. (The underlying assumption I made, that might not be correct, is that Christians kneel when praying - if that is the case, you simply need to say so.)

It was an attempt at a cold analysis of what may be motivating you to be so vindictive. (On the other hand, if you do not wish any of us to convert to Christianity, then my words might have overstated the cause of why you keep insulting anyone who is not convinced by your argument. It might be just one of your defining characteristics, and have nothing to do with your deep exasperation that just about no-one - Christian, non-Christian or secular - take your claim seriously.)

Having said that, please do stop transliterating our words so that they will then fit into your agenda. It demeans you.
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Re: Mark of the Beast

Postby windywherever » Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:30 pm

Bill wrote:You are not forcing me to my knees, you simply seem to be aghast that all of us are not doing it of our own free will.


But you ARE using your free will. We all do, no matter what behavior we choose to perform we do so because we choose to do so, whether that behavior is right or wrong. I'm not upset with you for not falling to your knees. This is an issue you've created as a distraction to the actual topic of this thread. This is a discussion. If you don't have an answer you just say so. If you feel I am not listening, you just say so. If you want to stop participating then you say so. All this stuff about falling to your knees is the equivalent of throwing a tantrum.

World banking is taking shape exactly as the prophecy described. It's not a coincidence and it's certainly not a lucky guess. It is a very specific prediction which has been shown to be accurate just as it was described in the prophecy. Practical reality is causing the correct interpretation of the words to become clear.

After dealing with cattle branding, the "lost meaning" of the words, and "what should we do about it", you had nothing left so you threw your game controller on the ground and declared that you're not playing anymore. But it's not like I want you to believe me. Believe the evidence. People like to claim they want proof of God's existence before they can believe. They make it sound like some kind of moral imperative; a quality of their character that they simply cannot believe without proof.

Then, when proof comes along they talk about lucky guesses and coincidences. They play around with the "meaning" of words, among other various conveniences, and when they are backed into a corner they become convinced that their sense of panic is actually moral outrage which, of course, further justifies in their own mind disregarding the evidence.

In the end we are all responsible for our own choices. That's the beauty of free will. Fall to your knees. Don't fall to your knees. Neither choice will make much difference if we ignore the lessons God wants to teach us. There are heaps of Christians out there who perform all kinds of pious acts. Some them go well beyond just getting on their knees; they prostrate. While our creator would like us to recognize his supreme authority over us I think he is less concerned with these various shows of worship in favor of us actually listening to what he says.

Isn't it the same for you? When you try to reason with someone, you prefer that they listen to what you have to say rather than talking about how much they like or dislike you, whether or not you exist, how your friends behave etc. You would prefer they just deal with what you're actually saying and recognize when you have a point.

Well, the mark prophecy is one hell of a point, predicted 2000 years ago with specific details that no reasonable person could ignore. And yet, that's exactly what's been happening around the world from Christians and non-Christians alike. In the end, the problem isn't a lack of proof. The problem is, as you suggested earlier, the question of "now what".
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Re: Mark of the Beast

Postby Bill » Fri Nov 27, 2015 7:14 am

I think your complaint that people ignore you when you bring your evidence of biblical truth for them to consider, might be because of the style of language you choose to use when you share your delight in your world view.

It is very hard to listen to, and therefore take seriously, someone who has poor debating skill.

I intend it to be constructive criticism when I tell you that you do often come over as an enraged vindictive troll,

Perhaps you should open a new thread and try starting anew, wearing the guise of someone who is not a brimstone pulpit preacher. Not that you necessarily are a brimstone pulpit preacher, nor an enraged vindictive troll, just that should you work at being more careful, such misconceptions will be far easier to avoid.
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Re: Mark of the Beast

Postby windywherever » Fri Nov 27, 2015 1:33 pm

Bill wrote:It is very hard to listen to, and therefore take seriously, someone who has poor debating skill.


This is probably the most important part of your post. All that stuff about how I should pretend to be, or not be something I may or may not be is smoke and fluff.

Debating skills can come in handy, especially when it comes to persuading people to see something which is difficult for them to see. However, in the end, we all still make our own choices. It is not the responsibility of the debater to so convincingly present an argument that people have no choice but to be convinced. Practical reality shows this just does not work.

No matter how good the argument is, people still have a choice to reject the evidence. We can reject strong arguments while embracing weak arguments and the skill of the person presenting the argument often has little to do with the final decision making process. But, considering my debating skill really is poor, doesn't that mean you're just picking on me with all that enraged vindictive troll stuff? ^.^

Bill wrote:might be because of the style of language you choose to use when you share your delight in your world view.


While it's true that I can be pretty rough in my presentation why should that stop you from seeing any truth which may be there? Are you suggesting that you will reject evidence if it's not delivered in a way which makes you feel comfortable? I can see some signs of that, but I don't think it's really the bottom line. With Christians, they reject the mark prophecy because of the words "buy and sell". Accepting those words means they would obligate them to become responsible for dealing with their materialism, and they definitely don't want to do that. Such responsibility would have far-reaching implications in their day to day lives. So, they just ignore the buy/sell part. They invent lots of spiritual-sounding arguments but the bottom line is that simply do not deal with it.

But for you, based on the comments (yes, sometimes hostile) I've seen from you toward Christianity in general, I'm leaning more towards you just not wanting to believe there really is a superior intelligence to whom you owe your life. Doing so would require submission to whatever standards this superior intelligence may have, which would almost certainly fall in the area of materialism, but also other moral standards like loving your neighbor, respectability, sex, and of course, self sacrifice.

In other words, you've got a reason to conclude an accurately predicted/fulfilled prophecy as a "lucky guess" which goes well beyond an examination of the evidence itself. Accepting anything more than a lucky guess would more or less obligate you to certain life changes which you simply do not want. I realize this is all speculation about your personal motives. They could be completely different to what I'm describing here, but based on the things you've said I think I'm pretty close.
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Re: Mark of the Beast

Postby Bill » Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:17 pm

Once again you put words in my mouth that I never said in order to "show" that my refusal to accept your case is based on my personal prejudices.

When anyone, anyone at all and not just you, claims that some verse or other in the Christian liturgy is literally true, I - and all other agnostics - ask' for something a bit more persuasive than "it is obvious and my interpretation is the only possible explanation".

So let me recap: your truth is not obvious, your constant chant that is true does not make it true, your twisting our words actually makes your case weaker, and your personal diatribes at us widens the gulf, not narrows it. And by your admission, you seem to have a not dissimilar effect on those Christians who are subjected to your style when you try to spread your version of the good word.

You are probably a nice enough guy (or gal - gender is not an issue around here), and for that reason I am trying to help you to get your act together. Those who write like an angry vindictive trolls, get their message lost by the automatic reaction or reasonable people being told that they are incapable of accepting "The One Truth" that is being proffered. It is not my case that your are a vindictive troll, just that the words you choose are similar to the ones they chose and it is therefore easy to misinterpret your motives.

Those of us with a genuine interest in our fellow men always offer a helping hand to those who might have use of it. It probably starts, in your case, with us getting you to obtain some sort of understanding of the difference between "evidence", "self evident" and "my personal opinion". But if our offers of help only further cause you to vent your spleen, I suspect that in the not too distant future you will abandon this forum with a sad sigh. Which might make you feel good, but you will have missed a golden opportunity to acquire some basic communication skills.
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Re: Mark of the Beast

Postby windywherever » Fri Nov 27, 2015 9:56 pm

Bill wrote:When anyone, anyone at all and not just you, claims that some verse or other in the Christian liturgy is literally true, I - and all other agnostics - ask' for something a bit more persuasive than "it is obvious and my interpretation is the only possible explanation".


This isn't just me putting words into your mouth, Bill. This is you actually saying these things. Where did I ever say, "my interpretation is the only possible explanation"? You won't answer this question because you can't, because I never said anything like it. And yet, you keep claiming that I did. Why?

Convenience. Convince yourself that I'm just some vindictive troll and your moral outrage suddenly feels justified in disregarding the evidence. You've done this on several occasions. Anyway, you've made it pretty clear that you'll continue with these misrepresentations no matter what I say and I feel I've done a pretty good job of presenting the evidence, even if it hurt your feelings at times ^.^ .

Good luck with your forum.
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Re: Mark of the Beast

Postby romansh » Sat Nov 28, 2015 11:11 am

windywherever wrote: Where did I ever say, "my interpretation is the only possible explanation"?

If you were to reread Bill's post you might find this is how your "debating" style seems to come across.

This is what I understood from Bill's last couple of posts.
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Re: Mark of the Beast

Postby Bill » Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:25 pm

Indeed Ron - messages need to be delivered in a manner that encourages contemplation for those messages to have their best efficiency.

With a different person doing the OP, we might have been led to discover that Mohamed was not that bad a prophet (Quran 41:21 "Their skins will bear witness against them as to what they have been doing" (that was a remarkable foreknowledge of the science of fingerprinting, for example.)) while the Jews had their hits (Zechariah 8:4 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; There shall yet old men and old women dwell in the streets of Jerusalem, and every man with his staff in his hand for very age." (A clear insight into the reoccupation of Jerusalem in 1967)) and even the Hindus claim that ALL their prophesies have come true, but knowledge of their language is so limited that I am not able to comment on the accuracy of their claim.

However, it really is not impossible that mysterious ways are afoot and studious people therefore have a need calm reflection on these matters: Why, for example, all religions seem to have a need to show that their particular prophesies are perfect, and all others are rubbish.

Having an open mind does not mean that any old garbage can be shoveled into it, and being flexible is not quite the same as being spineless. Even so, should Windywherever post here again, I sort of fancy that he will ignore Mohamed's prophecies, or he will try to show how Mohamed got it wrong...
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