The inherent issues with "God is Love"...

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The inherent issues with "God is Love"...

Postby subtlegong » Mon May 25, 2015 11:03 pm

Not to say its not a healthy philosophy for those trying to conquer intolerance and repression, but it strikes me as ingenuine and simplistic. I guess any "god is..." statement sets me on edge, but this one stinks so badly of naivete that it should be proceeded by at least 5 "lol"s and one "yolo" before every time its said. Organized religion, historically, is not very loving. Its history is one of xenophobia, self-loathing, open mistrust toward social and intellectual progress, and ridiculous limitations against what can even be called love. So I can see "god is forgiveness", because human history leaves a lot for us to forgive. I can see "god is wrath", because see above statement. But I can not see "god is love". Love is too ideal, to conceptual and very limited a concept to define any divine being. And we want to define our gods, so a god of love is a roaming dogma that will hurt more than it helps. You want a god of progress? make it a "god is everything". See officials try to confine and restrain that. The mind reels a bit a the thought of something that complex :stars: . And its more honest. A god of any specific concept is very obviously a human construct, a being limited by our limitations. A god of everything is abstract and inconceivable, as any true higher being should be. That is what I ponder today after another fruitless argument with a bigot about gay marriage. Alternatively I was also thinking about what kinds of cars would be the best for full solar conversions, if anyone wants that tangent...
We seek the truth and will endure the consequences~ Charles Seymour
Do not hate the hateful. Educate them~ self
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Re: The inherent issues with "God is Love"...

Postby romansh » Tue May 26, 2015 6:02 pm

I can't add much here Subtle, other than we should have some understanding for the believers and that the beliefs we hold are not really within our control.
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Re: The inherent issues with "God is Love"...

Postby gilnv » Wed May 27, 2015 4:08 pm

During a weekly car ride for groceries with some friends today, I said that "one of the best reasons for believing there is a god - is that the chances of our Earth being this supportive of life is too extremely remote to be plausible, otherwise".
Then a guy replied, saying that he was a deist for basically that same reason. He didn't feel that humans were god's chosen species or anything like that, but he felt that the life in our solar system was best explained by the idea that a creator somehow did it all.
I asked him if he felt like there might be more than one god, or if god may of died after creating all this, and he replied that he had no specific beliefs about those things, only that a creator of some kind seemed likely enough for deism as his choice.
The deist didn't think humans were a key factor in his beliefs, in fact he suspected that humans could die off completely because in his opinion, the creator didn't focus on humans, just the Universe or life.
P.S. I bought a new car a few weeks ago, a zero interest loan seemed to be a key factor for me this time. Also, all wheel drive was important because of my area's driving conditions. I'm not sure how feasible hybrids are in my area, although I hope they get more common.
the divine isn't a living entity, it is the living force within all of us.
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Re: The inherent issues with "God is Love"...

Postby subtlegong » Wed May 27, 2015 7:57 pm

Matter converts to higher forms. Life is simply one of those higher forms. My thought has tended to be that a higher being created the universe as we know it as a byproduct of its own creation, much like we "create" our heart or spleen. And this planet does seem very well made for our kind of life, but whose to say that our kind of life is the model for the universe? I see a lot of stars out there in the night sky and can't help but to wonder how many of them have plasma based lifeforms, see a lot of open space and read studies of fungus that thrives in open space. There are a lot of baron rocks out there that probably have crystalline lifeforms on them. So Earth supporting Earth friendly life seems to be a given. Can't have Jupiter or Venus life here, it has to have Earth style life to adapt to Earth. It's my hope that my great great grandchildren will have rock monster friends. In space.
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Do not hate the hateful. Educate them~ self
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Re: The inherent issues with "God is Love"...

Postby romansh » Sat May 30, 2015 9:19 am

subtlegong wrote:Matter converts to higher forms. Life is simply one of those higher forms.

I think I get what you are saying.
For me matter and energy rearrange as the universe unfolds, and some of the patterns that are formed we call life. Others we do not.

Also I am not sure of the term "higher" ... more complex perhaps, but even those entities we call more complex are still part of larger complex we call the universe. Take humans for example ... we live in a symbiotic relationship with the flora and fauna that inhabit our bodies. We would not be human without these lower forms of life.

And these higher and lower forms of life are interdependent with the stuff we don't call life. We depend on our environment ... which includes inorganic, organic, our neighbours in this solar system and ultimately on the whole universe.
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Re: The inherent issues with "God is Love"...

Postby Hoki » Mon Jun 01, 2015 6:34 pm

Its easy to see how 'God is love' starts to make sense when you start viewing the God of Abraham, as the Ultimate Evil Tyrant God.

Now, forget that God is God, and imagine this entity as a King or Emperor, very, very powerful human.
This King G has unlimited resources. Literally unlimited. No laws apply to him. His word is law. His will is absolute.
We ask him for personal favors before we go to bed at night.
We thank him for his gifts every time we eat.
We thank him when things are going well.
We say "Trust in his plan" whenever things aren't going well.
We say "He works in mysterious ways" when we don't understand.
We say that we have a personal relationship with him, but he doesn't communicate with anything in a way that can be observed by others. Others must take it upon the word of believers. End of the day, only believers get communicated with. Supposedly. I was a believer for a veeeeery long time and received no signal.
Thinks sex is bad.
Commanded his friend and devoted follower to sacrifice his son. Stops his friend just before he was actually about to do it.
Threatens to torture us for as long as he possibly can unless we comply with a list of demands.
Killed his son to make it easier for us to not get tortured for as long as possible, even though he didn't have to.
Makes us thank him for killing his own son, and believe that the death was necessary and that it even makes sense, or else threatens to torture us for as long as possible.
Those that comply with his list of demands are in his in-group. Those not in his in-group, are in his out-group.
Has a one-size-fits-all punishment for those in the out-group: Brutal torture for as long as possible. No matter the transgression.
Says that we were made in his image, even though we don't seem to share any sense of morality with him. (and thats kinda important)

As you can see, the god of Abraham, is an absolute Tyrant. And because he can do that which Tyrants cannot, torture us forever, he is the Ultimate Tyrant.

And because Hell is the most evil thing that could ever be, and because he created Hell, and because an infinite punishment for a finite transgression is just unimaginably evil, and because he doesn't really have to punish anyone anyways, that would mean that hes doing it because he wants to. And that would make him evil, the Ultimate Evil Tyrant God.

And so, looking at him this way, its not really much wonder why we say "God is love".
We're scared to shit. When speaking to the Ultimate Evil Tyrant God, you only say nice things.
He is whatever he fucking wants us to think of him as. Or maybe we're praying that calling him 'love' will make him somewhat less evil or harsh at the end of time when he does the unthinkably evil deed of brutally torturing an unknowable amount of sentient beings.

Remember, he loves you. And if he is real, try not to remember me. I'm just a good person, doing good deeds, living a peaceful live, promoting good will and happiness for all. I'll be being BBQ'd, along with a lot of other perfectly good, decent people. Forget us, if you can.

As you can imagine, I got very frustrated with the Tyrant before I ever started questioning his existence. We wouldn't get along. I imagined an eternity in heaven, and maybe its my limited mind, but I cannot possibly imagine a version where I wouldn't say 'Fuck you, you evil piece of shit!' to his face. I mean, eternity is longer than anyone can possibly imagine. The longer I'd spend in heaven, the more time to think about the horrible brutality that is and has always been going on. That would naw on me until I went insane. I'd probably start a mutiny against God. It would be inevitable. And even if I didn't dare do it, i'd at least think about it, and God would know that I thought about it. And then I would go down there.
In the end, for me, I'm fucked either way. If hes real, hes a fucking piece of shit. If you ignore your fear long enough to really think about it, he really, really is just a fucking piece of shit.
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Re: The inherent issues with "God is Love"...

Postby Hoki » Mon Jun 01, 2015 9:04 pm

I found solace in questioning his existence. I didn't become agnostic for sake of anything scientific. Everything can be explained away as being the work of god. I question the Tyrant's existence just to calm myself from fear and anger.

The more we uncover about our universe, the more beautiful everything becomes. This existence truly is a wonderous blessing. I don't know what is the nature of everything, but I can see that it is beautiful. The Tyrant god isn't beautiful. Hes brutal and hateful. Irrational, inconsistent. He is so many things that our natural world is not.

I don't think that a Tyrant God would have the capacity to create something as beautiful and wonderful as this great universe that we've had the privilege to exist in. Our hopefully long lasting chain of living and loving. The mental profile of the Tyrant does not fit with our universe, and certainly not humanity.

There are so many different ways to look at it, how unlikely the God of Abraham is to be real, and he just doesn't hold up, no matter which angle you look at it from.
The Tyrant has the mentality of a really mean 5yo bully, while any being capable of creating this universe would surely not behave like the one that has been described to us.

I find solace in that, even if the God of Abraham is real, and has been misunderstood by humanity down the generations, that we got it way, WAY off. For starters, hell cannot exist. It just can't. If it actually does, I just couldn't rationalize it. As the Tyrant affixes me to my BBQ spit, I would probably only ask one question. How does your mind even work? How does this even enter the equation? I would have lived a life for probably less than 100 years, being a good person, wanting whats good for mankind, the people that I relate to.
And for not doing everything on the Tyrant's little checklist for the <100 years that I lived, hes going to brutally torture me forever, unending.
It just doesn't make any sense. It doesn't make even the slightest bit of sense.

And that is ultimately why I know he can't be real. Not by anything scientific. The irrational Tyrant couldn't have created this universe, hasn't the mental capacity. A god that could have created our universe, wouldn't have created a hell.
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Re: The inherent issues with "God is Love"...

Postby AB517 » Tue Jun 02, 2015 3:46 pm

the word is homeostasis.
Its the only notion I know that matches everything, anybody, anywhare talks about. But most importantly it matches observations.

I have said many times here, "Maybe, god created us like we create a finger nail or blood cell."

the universe probably "life" as we know it. That being particle interactions and energy transfers. I probably would shrink that notion to earth's biosphere when talking "proof". But it easy can be extended to the whole thing. The notion that we are the "most aware" or "top life" in terms of interactions just doesn't match observations. I mean not even on earth are we.

plasma is a little tricky because of "speed", but since most of the visible universe is plasma I see no reason no reason that "life" as we don't understand to be there even in small percentages. It still may be the most abundant.
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Re: The inherent issues with "God is Love"...

Postby rain » Thu Sep 24, 2015 7:04 am

Our understanding of love and wisdom is extremely finite, I think it pays to remember that, when trying to judge a creator/infinite being. Certainly, if people feel so strongly about God being an evil Tyrant, one would hope that they would reflect a better example of love than the one they're attacking. Otherwise, it's a bit like the pot calling the kettle black. If you've found a better, more loving way, then please reflect that to others.
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Re: The inherent issues with "God is Love"...

Postby romansh » Sat Sep 26, 2015 10:06 am

Welcome rain

The problem is which god is the infinite?
And when we look through the pain and suffering that is all around us, then either we don't really understand what infinite love is or god does not.

This is assuming for the moment that this god exists and that it is infinite.

remember we get the infinite by dividing by zero.
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