Free will

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Re: Free will

Postby Carol » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:00 am

romansh wrote:For me angels and free will have much in common Ayn.



Please don't say that Rom....Angels don't exist! Are you admitting something here, just when I'm getting the hang of
things. ;)
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Re: Free will

Postby Bill » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:35 am

Please don't say that Carol ... Angels have not been proven to exist. (I thought you had got the hang of this.) :)
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Re: Free will

Postby Bill » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:46 am

p.s. You might have spotted here the principal of the extraordinary claim at work. (If you are rescued from a deserted island and claim you were able to live on the fish you caught, that is not an extraordinary claim. If you state you fed each evening by a visiting UFO, then that is an extraordinary claim. The degree of extra-ordinariness is proportional to how novel the claim is.

By that logic, the statement "angels exist" is an extraordinary claim, and the onus is on the stater to prove that they do.
"Angels do not exist" is not an extraordinary claim - for it is the experience of almost all of us : it does NOT need to be proven.

"Freewill does not exist" is the extraordinary claim on this thread. and the onus is on those holding that view to prove their case.
"Freewill exists" and its smaller cousin "Freewill has not been proven to be non-existent" are not extraordinary claims.

Placing an extraordinary claim and one that is not extraordinary together as though they are equals is a pretty neat trick. I wish I had come up with it first.
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Re: Free will

Postby AB517 » Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:37 am

we are back at it. :lol:

free will is like tracing graph paper. But the linking of two idea's to solve for a new previously unencountered experience solution does offer a "degree of free from one's own thoughts" that I am not sure how to handle. because free will is irrelevant to some doesn't mean it has to be for all. Not sure how that can't be seen as processing the traits of our imaginary beast. but anyway ... Even a high school artsie type person can understand if you know where every particle is right now the probability of predicting where it will be decreases with time. Unless of course they have some anti-future telling agenda they need to meet.
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Re: Free will

Postby Bill » Tue Jan 27, 2015 11:47 am

Indeed - there is a human mechanism for making choices, given that the choices made will be ones that are logical within all the available possibilities.

For some reason, the ad-mass term for the mechanism is "free will". Choosing an oxymoron as the name of a biological process has led many doctors and priests to take part in wild chases over the linguistic landscape.

On one side: "Free will is in itself an oxymoron. Real-life oxymorons do not exist in real life. Ergo, free will does not exist"

And on the other: "There is a biological process that has been named free will. The biological process exists. Ergo, free will does exist"

Once you get the hang that this is all nothing but world play, and you spend your time identifying which linguistic firework has just been lobbed on to the bonfire, it becomes much more fun.
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Re: Free will

Postby whateverist » Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:03 pm

romansh wrote:For me angels and free will have much in common Ayn.


For me as well. Neither is either important or urgent. Both are intriguing distractions for some, annoying for others.

romansh wrote:The Christian theological aspects of free will, I will leave to those that care about such things.


Ditto.
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Re: Free will

Postby whateverist » Tue Jan 27, 2015 5:07 pm

Bill wrote:Indeed - there is a human mechanism for making choices, given that the choices made will be ones that are logical within all the available possibilities.

For some reason, the ad-mass term for the mechanism is "free will". Choosing an oxymoron as the name of a biological process has led many doctors and priests to take part in wild chases over the linguistic landscape.

On one side: "Free will is in itself an oxymoron. Real-life oxymorons do not exist in real life. Ergo, free will does not exist"

And on the other: "There is a biological process that has been named free will. The biological process exists. Ergo, free will does exist"

Once you get the hang that this is all nothing but world play, and you spend your time identifying which linguistic firework has just been lobbed on to the bonfire, it becomes much more fun.


Yep, I believe neural biologists would call it "executive functioning". A stroke or other damage to particular areas of the brain impede it. No one asks whether executive functioning exists or whether 'executive functioning' is just an illusion.
You can call me Mark or whatever.

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”
― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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Re: Free will

Postby romansh » Tue Jan 27, 2015 9:58 pm

Carol wrote:
romansh wrote:For me angels and free will have much in common Ayn.


Please don't say that Rom....Angels don't exist! Are you admitting something here, just when I'm getting the hang of
things. ;)


psst ...Father Christmas
:-(
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Re: Free will

Postby romansh » Tue Jan 27, 2015 10:03 pm

whateverist wrote:
romansh wrote:For me angels and free will have much in common Ayn.


For me as well. Neither is either important or urgent. Both are intriguing distractions for some, annoying for others.


While true ... especially if free will is false ... "important" simply becomes a label we give to things (that are important to us).

Also ... if we don't believe in free will, then it is difficult to mount a moral argument ... which is an interesting feeling.
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Re: Free will

Postby Carol » Thu Jan 29, 2015 8:42 am

Thanks to both Rom and Bill for the above comments.

So....this leaves me at this point to ask of Rom, what is the "much" that Angels and Free will have in common? Maybe that will open some eyes of understanding and/or fire off a bunch of neurons. :stars:
"These people believe there is no truth to seek in nature, but only in the comparison of texts." Galileo
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