Monism, Dualism and Pluralism

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Re: Monism, Dualism and Pluralism

Postby AB517 » Wed Jan 26, 2011 5:45 am

Life is like a puzzle.

Monism, There is the puzzle.
Dualism, The puzzle it is complete or it is incomplete.
Pluralism, Many pieces to the puzzle.

When sitting in a room with a 3yr old and a 12 piece big red train puzzle that is 12”x18” what do they all mean?
It means we mess it all up and build it again.

Whats funny is that it probably means that all around the world.
Well, maybe not the "big red train" part.

My real question is,
The universe is built on hierarchy of structure and differences in “states" is used to drive it.

Why must these notions be treated so discretely?
why so absolutly (voka-aly)?
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Re: Monism, Dualism and Pluralism

Postby Og » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:21 am

I have heard you use this puzzle analogy over the years AB and I don't know that it really tracks.

For Monism, the puzzle pieces, if you look close enough, are really all together already, the gaps you perceive between the pieces just have to do with your perspective, but the puzzle is already always complete.

For dualism, it says that the pieces truly are absolutely separate and don't ever go together on some basic level.

Pluralism? I, personally, don't accept pluralism as an option. Pluralism, as it seems to be put out there, is just masked up dualism.
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Re: Monism, Dualism and Pluralism

Postby Karen » Wed Jan 26, 2011 11:58 am

Og wrote:For Monism, the puzzle pieces, if you look close enough, are really all together already, the gaps you perceive between the pieces just have to do with your perspective, but the puzzle is already always complete.


Alan Watts explained the gaps between the pieces and our perspective very well. It is an old book, but very good. "The Book: On the taboo against knowing who you are"
I have the book in a PDF file, if anyone wants a copy, please send me a pm with your email address.
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Re: Monism, Dualism and Pluralism

Postby Bill » Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:06 pm

Og wrote: Pluralism? I, personally, don't accept pluralism as an option. Pluralism, as it seems to be put out there, is just masked up dualism.

What a very dualistic approach!

People are divided into those who understand monism, and those who won't?
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Re: Monism, Dualism and Pluralism

Postby AB517 » Wed Jan 26, 2011 2:33 pm

Og wrote:I have heard you use this puzzle analogy over the years AB and I don't know that it really tracks.

For Monism, the puzzle pieces, if you look close enough, are really all together already, the gaps you perceive between the pieces just have to do with your perspective, but the puzzle is already always complete.

For dualism, it says that the pieces truly are absolutely separate and don't ever go together on some basic level.

Pluralism? I, personally, don't accept pluralism as an option. Pluralism, as it seems to be put out there, is just masked up dualism.


Remember,
It is just an analogy.

We all exist on the fabric of space. Monism fits. We just don’t know how quantized it is yet. I think I am beginning to understand you, and that is scary.

I would start at the rejection of a certain perspectives. I go to the people that disagree with me the most, Lol, which is quite easy being a white middle class American male, which would be the rest of the world. Anyway, my point is if your values hold up then, they may be correct, more often than not, you (me, everybody) need to adjust a bit.

For all intensive purposes the puzzle is in separate pieces and we play with them as such. We put them together and mess them up. Pluralism fits.

I would state that dualism is the weakest of the three ideas in that I do not experience only two of anything. Dualism seems to try and break down pluralism into black/white and it just doesn’t seem to work for me. I see black/white as a reality that does not exist (like the colors black/white). Our experiences do not exist as separate entities either but rather they exist as locations on one spectrum of “The Human Experience”.
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Re: Monism, Dualism and Pluralism

Postby romansh » Wed Jan 26, 2011 10:46 pm

Bill wrote:What a very dualistic approach!

People are divided into those who understand monism, and those who won't?

But to be fair it is recognized that all is one though
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Re: Monism, Dualism and Pluralism

Postby gilnv » Thu Jan 27, 2011 2:02 am

Bill wrote:
. wrote: . .

!

People are divided into those who understand monism, and those who won't?


No, no. Thats not right.
Let me clear things up.
People are divided into those who understand dualism, and those who don't realize it.

There, Gil.

P.S. I figured someone had to stand up for the dualists. Although, I should probably go to Wiki-something and read the definition of dualism, I'm guessing most dualists are theists.

But if I can use the term loosely, the life force on earth seems to be quite unique. Seems like our consciousness is seperate in that it arises to give us an impression that we exist as something more than simple matter and then eventually dies, completely gone, no trace of it what-so-ever. It doesn't even seem to morph into something else the way that matter does, like rocks to sand, or water to steam, or dirt into plants.
This mental life force seems to exist only on this planet, Earth, that represents like a fraction of one percent of our solar system, let alone the galaxy.
I understand all of your confusions, afterall, we're sitting on this bizarre planet that is spinning like a 1000 mph depending on your location, it is dizzying. And the planet is basically zooming around in circles around the sun at over 60,000 mph. Man, we need some dramamine or something, then we'll see the light. :stars:
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Re: Monism, Dualism and Pluralism

Postby AB517 » Thu Jan 27, 2011 6:37 am

Gil,

You have touched on something I have been thinking about. This LLF (Lose Life-force) is my LMG ("loosely my "god). What interreges me is that it is possible that this LMG may reside as our biosphere and no more. To us it would seem infinite, but from somewhere it is very finite. This fits the definition of infinity. Depending on the location of "YOU" you will always experience things really really big and very very small. That is what this human brain is experiencing, anyway.

PS
Just some nit picking, but your main point is correct.
Caterpillars “morph”,
Sand is little rocks.
Steam is water.
Most of the plant is converted CO2 from the atmosphere
Our sun is traveling around 500,000 mi/hr in the galaxy and they have no real idea how fast the galaxy is traveling. They only know its relative speed to other galaxies.
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Re: Monism, Dualism and Pluralism

Postby romansh » Thu Jan 27, 2011 7:54 am

gilnv wrote:But if I can use the term loosely, the life force on earth seems to be quite unique. Seems like our consciousness is seperate in that it arises to give us an impression that we exist as something more than simple matter and then eventually dies, completely gone, no trace of it what-so-ever. It doesn't even seem to morph into something else the way that matter does, like rocks to sand, or water to steam, or dirt into plants.
This mental life force seems to exist only on this planet, Earth, that represents like a fraction of one percent of our solar system, let alone the galaxy.
I understand all of your confusions, afterall, we're sitting on this bizarre planet that is spinning like a 1000 mph depending on your location, it is dizzying. And the planet is basically zooming around in circles around the sun at over 60,000 mph. Man, we need some dramamine or something, then we'll see the light. :stars:

Well Gil, I must be confused too. These 'forces' that you describe seem to be difficult to measure or even explain when we look at them closely. Human beings have been demonstrated as being good at finding patterns where no exist. I can't help thinking this force that you too might be one of these occasions?

rom
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Re: Monism, Dualism and Pluralism

Postby Og » Fri Jan 28, 2011 10:31 am

Bill wrote:
Og wrote: Pluralism? I, personally, don't accept pluralism as an option. Pluralism, as it seems to be put out there, is just masked up dualism.

What a very dualistic approach!

People are divided into those who understand monism, and those who won't?


Huh? Monism is the fundamental principle of our guiding physical model that has brought about our current society's level of understanding of who and what we are. So yeah, I guess your statement is true about understanding monism.

Pluralism is not a valid option in this discussion. Dualism says that there are fundamental separations. It says that there is some sort of magic intrinsic component to entities and this intrinsic component is somehow unchangeable, but can evolve and be morally judged. Dualism is a contradiction.

Pluralism just says that there are many such intrinsic systems... which is what dualism says. The point of these stances is the notion of absolute distinctions between phenomena. Dualism doesn't somehow reject the idea that there are "lots of souls" out there (i.e. a plurality). I don't understand your resistance to this notion. Why continue to apply pluralism as some alternative to dualism when they're the same thing?

Perhaps I'm just not understanding what you mean by pluralism. Can you clarify?
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