How to achieve a believable belief?

How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby hraith » Sat Dec 27, 2014 5:29 am

Rational minded people have mostly difficulties to find in the established religions a believable belief. Pure materialism, as the religion of atheists, could be a believable belief, but is this the only one? Materialism gives no perspective and with this belief it cannot be assumed that there is a deep sense behind the world scenario at all.
However if we assume there is a spiritual world beside the material one it would allow us to develop our own belief, which could give satisfaction to everyone and could show a deep sense oft he total world scenario.
For my evaluation I took into account all scientific facts (including evolution), the mentioned unproven assumption of a spiritual world beside the material one and my own experience in life. The result was a belief or weltanschauung with the following features:
- After death we will still exist as self-aware individuals (souls).
- The endless development of souls will be achieved via several lives on earth or elsewhere until the development can continue in the spiritual world only.
- In total there are three ongoing processes: Recycling of matter, biological evolution and the endless development of conscious individuals (souls). These processes go on and may have been started without any interaction of God.
A more detailed description of my „believable belief“ you will find in my blog:
http://rational-weltanschauung.blogspot.com.au/
I am very much interested to hear about the outcome of other evaluations for a believable belief with the same or with different premises.
My (Hermann's) belief is described at: http://rational-weltanschauung.blogspot.com/
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby romansh » Sat Dec 27, 2014 10:26 am

Welcome Hermann
Thank you for sharing worldview with us.

Some immediate questions come to mind, particularly around cause and effect, and the first and second laws of thermodynamics, as these are world views I hold dear.

1) Are the behaviour of souls described by the first and second laws of thermodynamics; if so, how, and if not, what are the reasons they are not described by these concepts?

2) How are souls not in some way described by cause and effect? If they are described by cause and effect, surely this soul can be subsumed in to a physicalist's or a materialist's worldview?
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby Bill » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:17 am

With respect, Rom, it would seem to me that your questions would be better directed to a mystical monist - who presumably has such reconciliations at hand.

And as we have discussed elsewhere, the "laws" of thermodynamics are simple descriptors of what we are able to observe, and are impossible to derive from first principles. It would seem to me that your questions are akin to asking "in what manner do souls experience the color red?" That the words make a fine grammatical sentence do not mean that they actually constitute anything more than semantics used to confuse the issue.

Perhaps you would like to try again, using some common ground as the starting point?
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby romansh » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:36 am

Hermann has a degree in physics ... with respect I think thermodynamics is common ground.
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby Bill » Sat Dec 27, 2014 11:50 am

I did not know that all True Physicists were expected to explain everything, even say Quantum Mechanics, within the confines of a single chain of cause and effect.

I know that the mystic monists don't - which is why I offered them as a potentially better source of resolving this issue.

I shall withdraw and leave you to trundle along...
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby romansh » Sat Dec 27, 2014 12:11 pm

Bill wrote:I did not know that all True Physicists were expected to explain everything, even say Quantum Mechanics, within the confines of a single chain of cause and effect.


Hermann's opening lines to his blog read:
    A rational weltanschauung (philosophy of life) is not based on any holy script or guru, but only on rational thinking. A logical combination of a basic unproven assumption with scientific facts, philosophical elements and one’s own experience leads to an individual rational weltanschauung.

Now I would be interested if Hermann would consider the first and second laws of thermodynamics as scientific facts or not.

If we want we could discuss the value a basic unproven assumption and why we should entertain such an idea, but foolishly I chose a subject of which I have some understanding.

Bill, if you have alternative method of evaluating a worldview, you are more than welcome to discuss it with Hermann, me or no doubt anyone on this forum.
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby Bill » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:13 pm

I am not promoting any particular world view, nor ways of evaluating any one of them as being intrinsically superior to another. For me, a person's world view simply represents that person's life experiences to date.

I leave the promoting of specific world views - as being the one Proper World Vew - to people like Chapabel and others with similar agendas of their own,

I shall now withdraw once more.
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby hraith » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:18 pm

All physical laws like the first and second laws of thermodynamics describe the material world and are not valid for the assumed spiritual world. They are just scientific facts for the material world where souls do not belong to. I am not sure whether souls can be described by cause and effect, but surely they cannot be implemented in a materialist's worldview.
It was a great achievement, that natural sciences were based on a materialistic worldview in the Middle Ages, but it seems to be wrong to force sciences like medicine, psychology or psychiatry to work exclusively on the same worldview.
My (Hermann's) belief is described at: http://rational-weltanschauung.blogspot.com/
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby romansh » Sat Dec 27, 2014 2:33 pm

hraith wrote: All physical laws like the first and second laws of thermodynamics describe the material world and are not valid for the assumed spiritual world.

Fair enough.
Does our spiritual world and material world interact ... and if so is there a mechanism and what is it?

hraith wrote: They are just scientific facts for the material world where souls do not belong to. I am not sure whether souls can be described by cause and effect, but surely they cannot be implemented in a materialist's worldview.

It is not an issue whether a soul can interact with materialist worldview or not. More of an issue is whether a soul can interact with the noumenal world and if this interaction can be perceived through phenomena.

hraith wrote:It was a great achievement, that natural sciences were based on a materialistic worldview in the Middle Ages, but it seems to be wrong to force sciences like medicine, psychology or psychiatry to work exclusively on the same worldview.

Well to be honest ... if I had need of a psychologist and if they replied "no" when asked if they believed in cause and effect - I would find another psychologist.
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Re: How to achieve a believable belief?

Postby hraith » Sun Dec 28, 2014 3:06 am

I think the soul is our primary existence. It is connected to our biological body via the brain - probably within the frontal lobe of the cerebrum.
A German science journalist, Hoimar von Ditfurth, has mentioned some time ago following:
“We have ears, because there is sound, which we can hear. We have eyes, because there is light allowing us to see. The archaic parts of our brain are needed for controlling our body functions and for spontaneous reactions to certain events. But why did evolution provide us with the huge brain (the cerebrum) allowing intelligent and creative actions? Is there something we have to be adapted for? If there would be a spiritual world and individual souls, an interface to our material body would be needed, which could be within the brain.”

I found an interesting article describing the functions oft the different section within the cerebrum:

http://faculty.stcc.edu/AandP/AP/AP1pag ... rebrum.htm

From that website I quote:

„Exactly how thought and personality are stored in the frontal lobe remains a mystery. But we certainly know that they exist in the frontal lobe. Like with many other things, we often learn about brain regions from people with damaged regions. Have you ever heard of a "frontal lobotomy?" That is a surgical procedure where portions of the most anterior frontal lobe are removed. The words "surgical procedure" are rather nice ways of describing this, since frontal lobotomies were often done against individual's wishes. In fact, a great uncle of mine was given one, because it was thought that he could have been a danger to himself. Anyway, after a frontal lobotomy, people are different; they have diminished intellectual capacity and lose some of their personality. This deficit after anterior frontal lobe tissue removal indicates that this brain region really does hold our thoughts and personality."
My (Hermann's) belief is described at: http://rational-weltanschauung.blogspot.com/
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