The media, 'Holy Books' and political correctness.

Re: The media, 'Holy Books' and political correctness.

Postby Ayn Marx » Mon Jan 12, 2015 2:50 am

By 'know thine enemy' I'm suggesting a dynamic process whereby a close study of the foundation texts of various religions and ideologies teaches us who may be a potential enemy, why and which passages they use to justify their actions.
We can then raise the specific passages triggering our suspicions and ask those who think them part of an infallible 'holy book' to explain precisely what is meant and what the implications for non-believers are. I suggest so called moderate muslims have failed to do so just as the early church failed to. For instance the church of Rome has yet confess the sin of the Spanish Inquisition or recanted one of the passages used at the time to justify the murder of thousands of innocent women.
There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or that useth divination, or an observer of times, or an enchanter or a witch Deuteronomy. Ch: 18 V: 10.
Interestingly recent biblical scholarship suggests the translation into the latin vulgate altered the original gender neutral 'poisoner' to the female specific 'witch'.
Notice the give away use of . . . . 'that maketh his son or daughter'. . . . . .
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Re: The media, 'Holy Books' and political correctness.

Postby Thoughtage » Mon Jan 12, 2015 4:16 am

By 'know thine enemy' I'm suggesting a dynamic process whereby a close study of the foundation texts of various religions and ideologies teaches us who may be a potential enemy, why and which passages they use to justify their actions.


We know who is the enemy when they pick up a gun and aim it at us, whether they be bearded Muslim fundamentalists, or the explicitly atheist regimes who ruthlessly slaughtered tens of millions of innocents during the 20th century.

Your premise would seem to be that violence arises primarily from holy books, but the actual real world evidence suggests something else. Mass violence typically arises from ideologies that have spun out of control, whether they are religious or secular ideologies has little to do with it.

Be wary of building your beliefs out of today's headlines, because a quick trip a few decades back tells an entirely different story.
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Re: The media, 'Holy Books' and political correctness.

Postby Ayn Marx » Wed Jan 14, 2015 12:03 am

Thoughtage wrote:
By 'know thine enemy' I'm suggesting a dynamic process whereby a close study of the foundation texts of various religions and ideologies teaches us who may be a potential enemy, why and which passages they use to justify their actions.


We know who is the enemy when they pick up a gun and aim it at us, whether they be bearded Muslim fundamentalists, or the explicitly atheist regimes who ruthlessly slaughtered tens of millions of innocents during the 20th century.

Your premise would seem to be that violence arises primarily from holy books, but the actual real world evidence suggests something else. Mass violence typically arises from ideologies that have spun out of control, whether they are religious or secular ideologies has little to do with it.

Be wary of building your beliefs out of today's headlines, because a quick trip a few decades back tells an entirely different story.

Point taken even though I find it simplistic and to a large extent mistaken. If we assume fundamental human nature tends towards tribal violence we still have to examine doctrines fed to the population from an early age and ask to what extent do these encourage and justify murderous behaviour. How in other words does an ideology manage to 'spin out of control', secular or religious.
As to me building beliefs out of today's headlines - are you serious?
And as to knowing who your enemy is 'when they pick up a gun and aim it at us' - isn't that just a little too late?
Besides, shouldn't mere intellectual curiosity make those of us who aren't true believers in religious doctrine or political ideology want to read the central texts of these movements?
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Re: The media, 'Holy Books' and political correctness.

Postby Thoughtage » Wed Jan 14, 2015 1:41 am

Ayn Marx wrote: How in other words does an ideology manage to 'spin out of control', secular or religious?


That's a question I can relate to. By including "secular or religious" we are recognizing the problem is deeper than any particular ideology.

It's perhaps useful to observe that ideologies of all flavors typically divide both externally in relation to other ideologies (we are the best etc), and even more revealing, they divide internally with the creation of factions within the ideology.

If this division process is found to be a property of all ideologies, then it can be reasoned the problem originates with something all ideologies share, thought.

1) So we might start thinking the problem is with a particular ideology.

2) Then we realize all ideologies contain the potential for excess.

3) Finally, the problem is traced back to it's source, that which all ideologies are made of, thought.

It's an analysis process of starting with the peripheral symptoms, and then moving towards the center, towards the source from which all the symptoms flow.
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Re: The media, 'Holy Books' and political correctness.

Postby Carrie » Thu Jan 15, 2015 7:12 am

Today the Pope stated that there are "limits to freedom of expression and that one cannot make fun of faith". I find that a curious statement, because of the hypocrisy that many of the faithful show toward other humans who believe in something else, or who believe in no religion at all.
Has it ever occurred to the most outspoken faithful zealots that others might be have become fed up because of the "faithful" bashing and insulting them first?

In my own personal experience, when I was still a Christian, I never felt insulted by atheists or wanted to condemn them, or people of other religions. Maybe I was not as indoctrinated as others? But when I left organized religion, the Christians around me definitely had plenty to say to insult me. :yes:

After hearing enough insults, and condemnations people get angry and want lash out at the ones condemning them. That is how humans behave no matter what their belief system.
I used to think that a person's biggest fear was death, but I found out that for most people it seems the biggest fear is actually criticism and judgement. (This could be why the concept of hell is so effective. Constant judgement, criticism and torture after death.)

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Re: The media, 'Holy Books' and political correctness.

Postby Thoughtage » Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:03 am

Today the Pope stated that there are "limits to freedom of expression and that one cannot make fun of faith".


He is right that there are limits to freedom of expression. We live in an ever smaller and ever more dangerous world. Poking each other in the eye for no good reason than the fun of it is not rational, but stupid.

A thoughtful objective reasoned challenge to religion AND reason is indeed rational and useful.

Making fun of the deeply held beliefs of billions of our neighbors is not reason, but dangerous juvenile emotionalism.

It seems odd to me that we are all rushing to celebrate the recently killed "journalists" in Paris, when they were extremists too. They went looking for a fight, and they found one. A fight they started, over stupid cartoons.

Mourn them, yes. Celebrate them, no.
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Re: The media, 'Holy Books' and political correctness.

Postby Carrie » Thu Jan 15, 2015 8:25 am

Thoughtage wrote:
Today the Pope stated that there are "limits to freedom of expression and that one cannot make fun of faith".


He is right that there are limits to freedom of expression. We live in an ever smaller and ever more dangerous world.

A thoughtful objective reasoned challenge to religion AND reason is indeed rational and useful.

.



I don't agree that the world is more dangerous than it ever was. I think because of 24/7 media exposure people perceive it that way.

I agree that thoughtful objective reasoned challenges are more useful,however some of the faithful respond to reasoned and objective challenges just as violently as mocking their religion, with people like that, no reasoning seems to change anything.

It would be nice to live in a world where people didn't insult each other and mock each other, but if we can't even get people to stop judging over shallow things like clothing etc...

How are we ever going to get people to stop insulting each other over a belief system? I think if we teach children another way and there is more hope for them in the future, but adults are much more set in their beliefs.

So I say let the faithful be, but if they attack people for not believing the same way, then the attacked do have the right to defend themselves.
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Re: The media, 'Holy Books' and political correctness.

Postby Carrie » Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:28 am

Thoughtage wrote:It's an analysis process of starting with the peripheral symptoms, and then moving towards the center, towards the source from which all the symptoms flow.


Maybe this analysis is actually happening right now inside the ideological groups. Maybe that's why there is chaos? The ones who are fanatical are becoming violent because they are being challenged?
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Re: The media, 'Holy Books' and political correctness.

Postby Thoughtage » Thu Jan 15, 2015 10:38 am

Carrie wrote: I hope people surrounded by the madness in their groups can challenge and change the minds of the dangerous fanatics.


This is just what I hope to do by suggesting we not celebrate the Paris magazine. They are our fanatics.

But look what's happening. Everybody is chanting "I am Charlie, I am Charlie!" We are celebrating our fanatics, and buying out their latest issue, which once again pointlessly shoves it's finger in to the eye of a billion peace loving Muslims all over the world.

Charlie is an extremist rag mag which exists for the sole purpose of enraging people and we, all of Western culture, are buying it's cynical marketing strategy hook, line and sinker.

And we wonder why uneducated peasants in poverty stricken villages support the Taliban. At least they have an excuse.
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Re: The media, 'Holy Books' and political correctness.

Postby Carrie » Thu Jan 15, 2015 11:25 am

Thoughtage wrote:
Carrie wrote: I hope people surrounded by the madness in their groups can challenge and change the minds of the dangerous fanatics.


This is just what I hope to do by suggesting we not celebrate the Paris magazine. They are our fanatics.

But look what's happening. Everybody is chanting "I am Charlie, I am Charlie!" We are celebrating our fanatics, and buying out their latest issue, which once again pointlessly shoves it's finger in to the eye of a billion peace loving Muslims all over the world.

Charlie is an extremist rag mag which exists for the sole purpose of enraging people and we, all of Western culture, are buying it's cynical marketing strategy hook, line and sinker.

And we wonder why uneducated peasants in poverty stricken villages support the Taliban. At least they have an excuse.



I am not celebrating saying, "I"m Charlie", and I am from the "the west". I have been offended by things I have seen in articles and on other mediums, but I haven't killed anyone over it.

Also not all uneducated peasants support the Taliban, especially

the ones who's children have been hanged by them or taken. I wouldn't blame them for being angry at the west and the Taliban and I wouldn't blame Muslims who are offended by the publications for being angry.

However, I don't sympathize with those who shot those cartoonists over Charlie's publications either. There are Muslims that do not sympathize with the shooters as well. After hearing about the background of the two brothers involved in the

shootings their situation in life sounds very similar to kids who chose to join gangs in the U.S.. So did they really do it for their deity or underneath did they do it to belong and feel powerful? While I have sympathy for them enduring a difficult

childhood I have no sympathy for killing others regardless of the reasons.

Killing those people can never be taken back, while a stupid cartoon or a tabloid will eventually be forgotten (if one choses to go on with their life and not let negativity get to them.)

I think that killing over any ideology is pointless. (I didn't used to. I was biased, but now I see that it really is pointless. It just causes more harm and hate.)

We have no evidence that tabloids offend a deity. Sure, humans are offended, but to claim to honor the deity by killing it's creation? What right do any of us have to do that?

We can't truly ever prove that a deity told us to do such a thing!! No matter how many books we have been handed by ancients claiming that a god wrote them.

We humans have made assumptions that a deity thinks like us and has a fragile ego and needs our constant defense . It seems to me that we made a god in our own fragile, egotistical image and claimed it's the other way around.
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